LM27 Wheelhouse doors

[tonyp]

I am considering fitting wheelhouse doors to our 27. Having seen boats with and without doors, were they factory fitted or are they all owner fitted? I presume both.
The "pros" of doors are pretty straightforward, but how limiting are the "cons", and what are they?
Any advice on design would also be appreciated. Mick, I see Oceandancer has them.Did you fit them?
Tony

[Charlie]

Hi Tony
I have a 1989 Mk2A and it has factory fitted doors (this LM was built in the UK).
They are short at the bottom by about 300mm so they fold back over the seats - the bottom part is filled by a removable washboard.
Glass to the top - see pic.
Can not see any 'cons' to having doors in the UK - in bad weather they work really well.
I can send more pictures if you want to try and build them yourself.
Regards
Charlie

[tonyp]

Thanks very much for this, Charlie. I do intend to make them myself, and a view from the tiller would be very valuable. No rush for the picture, though, as I've more pressing work to do on the boat this winter. However, I can start planning.
Keeping the cockpit clear of doors when they are open, seems to be one of the cons to be addressed and yours seems a very elegant solution. Having them full length sliders means making separate cockpit-seat supports at the wheelhouse end. Yours avoids the need for this. Clever!
Kind regards
Tony

[oceandancer]

Hi Tony, An enclosed wheelhouse space does transform the boat giving you an all weather securely enclosed space. In winter this space can be effectively heated and gives you valuable workspace. It also provides security for the instruments fitted. allowing personal items to be stowed in the wheelhouse rather than everything having to be kept below. When the original design was conceived instrumentation was in it's infancy but now all the sailing instruments, navigation and communication aids fitted are of significant value and a real target for would be thieves if there are no doors. So security is one issue you should address when designing the doors. Another is forward visibility. Any doors fitted will affect the view from the cockpit and the way the doors are hung and folded is paramount, for example where will the doors fold to and when folded will the glass area still provide a view ahead? Most wheelhouse doors fold out and against the bulkhead which means engineering the forward locker tops to provide space to accommodate the folded doors.

Among LM27s my boat seems to be unique in that the full length doors are bi fold and swing INTO the wheelhouse space and are secured folded next to the helmsman (see pic) offering only a small obstructive area forward. This also means that the forward cockpit lockers can remain full length and I have enclosed the fronts with removable panels, one of which can easily contain an inflatable. I have had to reduce the size of this pic to fit the site but you can see that I have also fitted larger windows to give the best forward view. The doors were factory fitted and seem to have been a collabaration between the factory and  by the original owner who imported the boat. Ocean Dancer was the first boat imported into the UK.



You may also be able to see that I have done away with the inner door to the main cabin in the manner of the Scanyacht 290. This door always conflicted with either the door to the heads or the hanging locker and I was glad to be rid of it. Security now all rests on the outer doors and the boat seems bigger for it.

If you fit doors that are tilted forward as in the manner of the mark 2a you can gain and extra 10inches of space in the wheelhouse but you will then have to modify the helmsman's seat and the galley top. The doors will also then have to fold outwards.

In general it is not a good idea to sail with a washboard which is near to the level of the cockpit lockers. The LM 27 cockpit is by modern standards very large and could contain a lot of water and weight if a large "greeny" were contained in the cockpit. It seems a bit strange but the design concept was to allow such water to flood the cabin area and distribute the weight throughout the boat rather than contain it all aft. The cockpit floor is only about 4 in above sea level. A lot of weight aft could make the boat unmanageable in the event of being seriously pooped. The design allows for water in the main saloon to drain into the engine well for pumping overboard manually or by automatic bilge pump. It is well known that too much weight in the cockpit i.e.7 full adults (say 560 kilos) will depress the LM27 stern such that water will come into the cockpit drains! This is only the weight equivalent of around 125 gallons. If the cockpit were full of water the boat could sink by the stern!

Hope this helps

Regards

Mick Legg




 

[Charles]

Tony, is yours a Mk I or a Mk 2 and where are you based? Marguerite is a Mk I with factory fitted doors, as LM did for the UK market; they are very neatly stowed when open, folding back on themselves and held in place by the cockpit seats; we use them to secure the boat when leaving her for more than a few hours and we also use the lockable door between the wheelhouse and the saloon. It all works very well, the vision is excellent and we wouldn't change anything. She is out of the water for the winter at Woodbridge in Suffolk, and if that is anywhere near you we could arrange to show you over her.

Charles

[tonyp]

Mick and Charles.
Thank you both for your responses.
I must first, ashamedly, say I don't know what model our 27 is!!! Do I get blackballed for that? What are the defining differences between Mks 1, 2 & 2a? I do know she was built in 1979 and spent until 2005 in Holland. From what you said about the engine compt bulkhead, Mick, I guess she is a Mk1, but until I get more info I can't say any more. 

Your comments on taking on a cockpit full of water are valuable, Mick. I had thought that the single small outlet in the sole was pushing the description of "self-draining" cockpit a bit, so I stand warned.

Sundance is in Pembroke Dock, Charles, but we do sometimes come over to Suffolk and know Woodbridge quite well. If we are coming over this winter, I'd gratefully to take up your offer, but we haven't got anything planned as yet. If so I'll get in touch.

I hadn't thought of bifold doors, Mick. That certainly doesn't lose any cockpit space. Hmmm. Presumably, Charles, when your doors are open, this eliminates a short length of cockpit seat on each side. Not a big issue, I suppose, because if you had so much need for seating, you'd probably have water coming up through the cockpit drain anyway, from the weight of bodies!

The security aspect afforded by wheelhouse doors was what had really prompted me to think of fitting them. I hadn't thought of taking off the saloon door, though. I can see the advantages, and its absence would not be likely to reveal anything more tempting to thieves than what is already on view in the wheelhouse. 

I look forward to any more info, not only on doors, but also how to identify the LM27 Marks.
Again, many thanks, both.

Regards
Tony

[oceandancer]

Hi Tony,

The way to tell a Mk1 hull is by the shape of the anchor locker. If you've got a round hatch then you have a Mk1 hull. After this the anchor locker was triangular, (and much more useable!)

Also, regarding the engine hatch and intervening bulkhead, on my boat (Mk1) the engine hatch has the vertical part of the step down into the wheelhouse attached to it,  so to raise the engine hatch you first remove the after wheelhouse floor then lift the hatch complete with this vertical panel (quite heavy!). The after part of the wheelhouse floor rests on a piece of aluminium angle attached to the lower edge of this vertical panel. I don't know if this was standard for all Mk1's.

When next on the boat I will take a pic and insert it here......

Charles I believe that your boat is a Mk1. Is your engine hatch arrangement the same ?

Regards

Mick

[jandane]

Mick, that must depend on the marked. Mine for sure is a MK 1 from 1977 and she has triangular anchor locker. In fact, I can not remember having seen the round hatch anywhere in Denmark, so........?

[Charles]

Tony

The most noticeable difference between the Mk 1 and the Mk 2 is that the Mk 2 has a sloping aft face to the wheelhouse and I believe that the cockpit must be slightly shorter as a result. I think that part of this sloping face is made of fibreglass and the central part is covered by the doors; there is also a substantial cill separating the cockpit from the wheelhouse floor.

The Mk 1 has a single step down from the cockpit to the wheelhouse and no cill. The original design, as supplied in Europe, had no real separation between cockpit and wheelhouse (as shown very clearly in www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives/lm-27/lm-27.htm). For the UK market vertical folding doors were fitted in place of the stainless steel poles and wooden panels shown in the picture; the doors fold back and are secured so neatly that there is no appreciable loss of cockpit seat length. (I can't for the moment find a picture showing the doors properly, but you can just about see them in the open position if you go to my post at Ideas for Sharing > LM 27 Cockpit Lockers.)

As for flooding, we have never taken any appreciable amount of sea in the cockpit, and we have sailed in some fairly rough seas coming from all directions. I think that this must be due to the shape of the hull, particularly the canoe stern, and the protection afforded by the wheelhouse. The built-in cockpit drain arrangements are perfectly adequate. Doubtless a huge wave breaking over the stern would poop us, but I really don't plan to sail in such conditions, avoiding anything over Force 5 and sea state moderate.

If you are coming to East Anglia, Tony, and want to visit Marguerite either during the winter out of the water at Woodbridge or in the sailing season at Woolverstone on the River Orwell, send me a private message and we will try to agree a date.

Mick: I think your engine locker arrangements must have been modified. In our [unmodified] Mk 1 only the horizontal panels are movable and they are not particularly heavy: the vertical front face of the cockpit floor is fixed and would require tools to remove.

Hope this helps.

Charles

[oceandancer]

Hi All, Gosh! I'm beginning to think my boat must be a Mk0! As mentioned above I will take some pics of the various bits in question. It might be quite interesting to see the differences.

Mick

[oceandancer]

Hi All,

Here are some pics of my boat. It was registered in 1974 but the hull number is 73184 so I guess the hull was laid up in 73. The broker told me it was exhibited at the '74 Earl's Court Boat Show.

First the anchor hatch, it's round. I have seen this on other boats on the web. The only anchor I can fit in it is a folding grapnel which is OK for a lunch hook but I have a CQR below for any serious anchoring.

        

Now the engine hatch. The hatch is large ( and heavy) and is hinged on the aft end with the riser to the wheelhouse step attached.

    But it does give good engines access.

 I have to have a new post as I  seem to have reached the attachment limit.   See  LM27  Mk1  

   

  

[Charlie]

Hi Tony
Some pictures for when you start making the doors.
Hope it helps.
Take care
Charlie

[Charlie]

....and here's the top part of the frame.
Take care
Charlie

[Charles]

Be aware Tony that Charlie's boat Arish Mel - the cleanest LM I have ever seen! - is a Mk 2. That's why the doors are not full length.

Charles

[tonyp]

Thank you very much for the pictures, Charlie. Really excellent to get some idea of the construction and detail. After the recent correspondence about 27 Marks, I'd realised that your boat was a Mk2, and I can see where the construction will need to be different for mine. But thanks for pointing it out Charles. 
I like the idea of being able to open the doors right back onto the rear of the wheelhouse, but to do so they would either have to slide, or have a system such as yours. I wonder if one could have an arrangement where the washboard was split for each door, with each half being hinged like the door, but just opening back against the cockpit seat.  Would save having to remove and stow a washboard, but would keep both the cockpit and the wheelhouse clear of the doors when they are open. Something to mull over with a glass of malt and a pencil and paper,  perhaps?
Kind regards
Tony