LM 27 and 30 space differences

[saildoc]

Hi folks..New member here actively looking at a 27 and a 30 for sale here in the States. Been aboard the 27 and have an appt. to see the 30 on Friday. Very subjective questions here. but wondering if those of you that have been aboard both have an opinion on the relative feel of the 'usable space' aboard for a couple. We would at most host a couple adult kids or maybe grand-kids very occasionally for a weekend, but mostly be just the two of us aboard for a week or so several times a summer?

Just looking at photos I notice for example, the difference with the open, single level deck of the 27 that extends from the cockpit to the bulkhead - as compared to the 30's dividing doors and a step down to the galley/helm area. It seems like the 27 might feel more spacious there? Does the sliding door and step down of the 30 constrain the feel of the cockpit?

Any sense of where the extra 3 plus feet is readily apparent in the 30? She's beamier too - is it quite noticeable compared to the 27?

I apologize as I'll have my own ideas in a few days when I get aboard the 30, but thought I'd ask for opinions of others on the 'feel' of these 2 boats from a space perspective..

Many thanks..

Saildoc

[johnc]

Hi Saildoc, a few thoughts about your questions.
I have recently bought an LM 28 and have looked at a number of LM 27s over the years. My first impression of my LM 28 was that the cockpit seemed more cramped than the LM 27s. I think as you have said, this is due to some of the 27s have open areas under the cockpit seats and the single level together with the fact that the 28 has the mini bulkhead and a deep step down into the wheelhouse.
I should say at this point that I have not had my 28 in the water yet but one of my perceived advantages of the 28 and (I think) the 30 is the engine is under the cockpit rather than under the wheelhouse floor which might make noise level in the wheelhouse lower. Other factor about the 28/30 is that the engine is in a fuuly sound proof enclosure which again may reduce sound levels. The enclosure is also watertight so that in the event of a problem with the saildrive daphram leaking, the water cannot flood the boat as the top of the enclosure is above the waterline (so I am told)
Now this is where I will be torn to shreads by LM27 owners ( and there are many more 27s than 28/30/32s). It is "said" that the 28 hull is more akin to a sailing boat that the long keeled 27 and consequently, the 28/30/32 LMs sail better. That said, the LM with its long keel, may be better in a following sea as the long keel will help to keep the boat running straight.

Wish you well in your search.

John

[saildoc]

Thanks for your thoughts John. I got aboard the 30 yesterday and feel sort of the same about the cockpit size. For me, I think the sliding doors seem to make the difference. I was also a bit surprised to find that the cockpit enclosure was shorter than I anticipated. I'm only like 5'6" and could not stand up without hitting the top. Maybe that can be adjusted taller some?

The other noticeable difference was that tall step down into the wheelhouse. I originally had a faulty memory that the cockpit sole on the 27 went all the way to the main bulkhead, but the 27 I'm looking at does have a step down into the wheelhouse also - just not as tall a step.

Thanks for your insights on the sealed engine compartment relative to noise and the rest..Had not considered those aspects.

I've read the comments on the relative sailing abilities too, but I think what's interesting is that both 'camps' seem content with their choices! Can't ask for more than that..

I'm in a quandary about which at the moment...

Best,
Doc

[Sula]

In my LM27 (MK1, 1979) it is a shallow step down from the cockpit into the wheelhouse, and two shallow steps down from the wheelhouse to the saloon, and another shallow step up into the fore cabin. I doubt other LM27s are any different in this respect, as this would probably lead to headroom issues.

The LM27 engine is under the cockpit (at least in my boat), not the wheelhouse. (The flywheel on the front of my particular engine does project through the bulkhead into the first of the two compartments under the wheelhouse, but I assume this is because I have the longer 3 cylinder Bukh DV36 engine, rather than the standard 2 cylinder Bukh DV20 (a few had Volvos, presumably during the period Bukh were in financial trouble).) As far as I am aware none of the LM27s have the GRP engine casing that the later series featured.

If johnc is referring to things I have written when he says 'it is "said' that the 28 is more akin to a sailing boat than the LM27' he has misunderstood me. The LM27 certainly has a sailing boat hull - it is derived from traditional Baltic sailing fishing boats (somewhere on this forum JanDane, who is very knowledgeable about LMs, mentions the particular types). The LM27 sails well (though is not close-winded). The LM28 (and the rest of the later series) has a more modern (sailing) yacht shaped hull.  The earlier and later series have two different designers, and the difference in hull shape - traditional versus modern, but both sailing types - is very obvious if viewed ashore, but can also be seen in profile and plan views of the two.  The following drawings are of, respectively, the LM27 and LM30.
.    

You are in the enviable position, Doc, of having the choice between two great boats!

[saildoc]

Thanks for posting Sula. The 27 I’m looking at has the Volvo engine and is located as yours. And as you mention, the step configuration is the same.

One question you might help me with on the 27, is whether you can stand up under the cockpit canvas when it’s up? I viewed the 27 without it rigged. When I was aboard the 30, it surprised me to find what was actually just sitting headroom under the canopy. As I’m only about 5’6” tall I sort of expected to be able to stand up there. Guessing it was a good 4 inches short - unless it wasn’t rigged correctly?

I’m amazed to find these 2 available! The respective prices are within a relevant range of each other as well

Hmmmm??

Thanks,
Doc

[Sula]

I have not noticed the canopy being unduly restrictive. I am 6' 1", and quite likely have to stoop and bow my head, but I'm used to that from my previous, smaller, boats.

I am planning to go to the boat tomorrow, so I'll consciously check it out, measure up and report back.

John

[oceandancer]

Hi Doc,
I agree with John, the canopy is not at all restrictive. I'm quite short and have headroom in the cockpit lockers! but I sail with reasonably tall crew who have no problems at all. You rarely sail with the canopy up anyway, it's more of an extension to the accommodation and a well tailored one at that. It is designed such that you can rig it as a bimini,  something that has been very welcome in the subtropical solent this year. Once you learn how it can be stowed away very quickly and neatly. Other boats with added on cockpit canopies have to remove them altogether and stow them somewhere.
It also creates a very useful workspace. I have a worktop that fits over the table on which I can mount a vice

I think it is one of the most distinctive and useful features of the LM mark and I would not be without it.

You can see from John's drawings that the 27 has a bit more hull volume than the 30. For it's length it is very roomy,  several friends have compared the space to something like a 32 footer but of course you do not get that for nothing. Whilst she will sail very well in smooth water,  sea state is her achilles heel. There are some short choppy sea states in which she will just not go well especially to windward and because there is more hull in the water she is more prone to adverse tidal conditions than the 30, however, that's what the engine is for.

I don't tend to use my engine very much but there are occasions when I have made surpirsingly good progress with full sail and the engine running quietly on low throttle.

From the point of veiw of a single hander the 27 has the advantage of having the heads near to the cockpit rather than more forward as in the 30 and 32. and also the 27 is more suitable to be left to her own devices for short periods due to the long keel.

The other aspect of the 27 that I like is the space on the wheelhouse roof where you can mount a reasonable size solar panel. I have a 100w panel up there  and with a 1kw inverter I can boil a kettle (very useful to a single hander under sail)  run the toaster and use power tools all free and without a shore power hook up. On the 30 and 32 there is just not enough room on the roof.

Mick

[Sula]

Had a quick measure up of my LM27 cockpit canopy, and here are the measurements (all approximate):

Effectively, there's roughly 5' 6" headroom everywhere above the cockpit sole (floor) for three quarters of its length, and there is ample sitting headroom above the cockpit seats for almost the whole of the length of the cockpit.  

The top of canopy slopes very gently down from where it attaches to the top of the wheelhouse to the frame towards the rear, and then slopes steeply down to where it attaches to the coaming at the back of the cockpit. It also slopes very gently laterally from the centre to the tops of the near vertical sides.

Height cockpit floor to canopy
5' 7" (170cm) centre at front of cockpit
5' 5" (165cm) centre at frame near rear

Height cockpit seats to canopy
4' 3" (130cm) at front of cockpit
3' 7" (109cm) at frame at rear

Lengths
4' 3" (130cm) top of canopy from wheelhouse to rear frame
5' 8" (173cm) cockpit sole (floor) wheelhouse to rear of cockpit
6' 10" (208cm) cockpit seats (these extend under the rear deck)

[Lou]

Hi, very interesting for me reading this thread as I am currently looking to buy a LM28 or LM30 but after this might look at the LM27 also.

The question I need to know and haven't been able to find in any of the specs is the head heights in the wheelhouse and cabins. I am 6ft 1in and would like not to have to stoop.

Would be grateful for any feedback on this
With thanks
Lou

[Sula]

Hello Lou, and welcome to the Forum.

I am just over 6 foot and find my LM27 adequate in internal height (and much better in that regard than my previous, smaller boats).

I do not feel I have to stoop as such, but if I remember correctly (unfortunately my boat has been out of the water for a couple of years) I can't stand bolt upright - I just have my head bowed slightly. I can walk around and not feel I'm crouching.

That's in the wheelhouse and saloon. There is less height in the forecabin, the heads compartment, and in the cockpit when the canopy is up. In those I am conscious of stooping, but don't find it a serious problem. And don't forget to duck going into and coming out of the heads compartment! (The doorway itself has reduced height.)

The other thing about being tall is the length of berths, which in some boats are inadequate in length (and some boats in breadth, too!). I find the saloon berths long and plenty wide enough for me.

The forecabin berths, by contrast, I find a bit cramped and on the short side for me, even if alone in the forecabin - I've barely enough length to fully stretch out even if I have my head off to one side, and if there were someone in the other berth there wouldn't be enough room for both sets of feet. The forecabin is only suitable for two people if at least one, and preferably two, of them is a child, in my view. A friend several inches shorter than me said they found it perfectly adequate when they had the forecabin to themselves.

I haven't been on a LM28 or 30 to be able to judge how much extra height they provide.

[jandane]

LM30 saloon height is 190cm. Length of berths in main saloon 185 and 190. In wheelhpuse around 190 as well. Cockpit under the canvass around 175
LM28 saloon height is 180cm and after 1986 178,5 due to plywood roof (can be taken off - I did) Lenght of berths 190 and 198 cm. In wheelhouse around 188cm. Cockpit under camvas around 165 but seldom a problem as you normally sit down under the canopy.
LM27 saloon height is 182cm. Berths 180 to 190 cm. (stb side is shortest. It can be extended by femoving the bottle locker just inside cabin/after main locker. Cockpit height 188cm and under the canvas 175