LM27 versus LM28

[seekinglm]

I am looking for a shallow-draught motorsailer and have recently become aware of these great boats. The very low draught of the 27 really appeals but I am a bit worried by their age and potential issues with osmosis in the hull. Are there any particular pointers other than that of getting a good survey done? A daft question on an LM Owners board but I guess there is no more modern equivalent of these boats (I love the layout of them)? And is there anything more than the 10 years or so difference in age which would suggest I should look at an LM28 instead? The twin bilge keel version of the LM28 seems to have a shallow draught but looks to have some points of vulnerability in that and the saildrive.

And a final question: are parts and servicing readily available for the diesel engines? Most of the boats available still seem to have the original engines fitted. 

Thanks and apologies if all of this has been covered elsewhere.

[Sula]

Hello seekingLM, and welcome to the Forum.

I am not aware of any LMs having had osmosis problems, but that's not to say there've never been any. LM had a very good reputation for the quality of their GRP work, which was reckoned to be superior to most British boats of the same era, and which may contribute to fewer such problems. Osmosis tends to be regarded with less fear than it used to be (which may've been fuelled at the time by a burgeoning industry stripping and recoating hulls as a supposed cure). Many argue that few, if any, boats have ever sunk or been destroyed by osmosis. Its seems generally accepted these days that if you have a modest number of blisters, you just grind them out and fill and fair the voids. If a hull is riddled with osmosis, then probably just walk away, as it will at least very seriously reduce its monetary value and re-saleability.

I am not aware of any particular problems with LM27s, other than -
(a) The inner shrouds' chainplates (lower mountings), which are only bolted through the deck, and not further supported. This can lead, over time, to the deck flexing around those fittings, and creaking underfoot, and in some cases even leading to cracking in the gelcoat (which is much more rigid and brittle than the underlying GRP). Some boats have had braces fitted under the decks to take the strain from the inner shrouds to the hull. One forum member moved his chainplates forward and aft so that the strain was transferred to the existing bulkheads. (There are a couple of old threads about these modifications on the Forum).
b) The bow fitting which takes the strain of the forestay is also mounted only to the deck, and some owners have found this being pulled upwards out of place. There is an simple solution to this (also shown in earlier threads) of bolting through the bow further down and taking the strain to the hull here using a short cable or rod, and a bottle screw)
I imagine both these potential problems will be more likely to have arisen in boats fitted with backstay tensioners.

Inevitably any boat of a few years old (and even new ones!) will have a few quirks and things that could do with attention (often from previous owners' ill-advised DIY!). I would recommend getting a survey done on any boat (unless, perhaps, both the value is too low to warrant it AND you know what you are looking at, and what for). Your insurer will almost certainly want to see a survey, so you may as well bite the bullet before you commit to the purchase, but do give any boat you are interested in a good look over yourself first to see if you can spot any issues, and to be sure that it's worth investing in a survey.

There is not necessarily a 10 year age gap between LM27s and LM28s. From memory, LM27s were made (with slight variations) from the mid 1970's to the early 1980s (1982?). The LM27's little sister, the LM24, started a little later, but finished about the same time, I guess. I think the LM28s were started around the same time as the LM27s finished, so there may be some which are the same age or only a couple of years difference.

The LM28 was part (the earliest?) of a range of boats, the LM26, LM28, LM30 and LM32, all of which were an updating of the LM24/LM27 concept by a different designer. They had modest fin keels (some bilge keelers were also made) instead of the LM24/27 long keel, sail-drives instead of traditional shaft drive, a more modern 'yacht' shaped hull than the fishing boat derived LM24/27 hulls, more modern styling, and had better support for the chainplates! I have not been able to compare them myself, but I imagine they will sail (even) better than the LM27. Personally I would not regard the bilge or fin keels as a vulnerability, but the saildrive is a maintenance consideration.

After LM stopped building the LM27 a modified, supposedly 'de luxe', version of it was built by Scanyacht, who had previously been the UK importer of LMs, as the Scanyacht 290. They were available with deeper keel/taller rig and various other options. There aren't many of these, and they currently tend to be much more expensive than the original LM27s.

I am not aware of an obvious more recent alternative similar in concept to the LM motor-sailers. They were very much of their time, and changing tastes and wallets generally led away from modest sized motor-sailers. There may be later built (or launched) instances of the Colvic-Watson and smaller Fishers available, but these (though no doubt having their own charms) will probably not sail as well as the LM, or have its quality finish and delightful little design touches. You might also look at Beneteau Evasion, Dartsailer, and Fjord 28, but I think most of these would be of a similar vintage to the LMs. The Southerly range of lifting-keel yachts might perhaps be of interest. The earliest ones date and size similarly to the LM27s, and from then on they generally became ever more refined and larger (and expensive!). The Hunter 27 Pilot might also be of interest, but is rather different in concept to the LM27, despite some similarities.

Most LMs have Bukh DV range engines, some have Volvo engines. The Bukh DV engines are still built today, but now are fitted almost exclusively in lifeboats. They are robust, simple engines and with basic care usually last very well. They can be totally rebuilt if need be. The parts are almost all readily available, though tend to be rather expensive. I am not familiar with the Volvos that were fitted, or the availability of spares for these. Some have replaced engines with e.g. Betas or other brands, or second-hand Bukhs.

I hope that's of help, and that others will be along to offer their views and knowledge.

[seekinglm]

Hello Sula,

Thank you very much indeed for your detailed response. And Happy New Year.

Hopefully I am about to become the proud owner of an LM27. I have engaged a surveyor to take a look at it for me (as it is impossible under current restrictions for a private individual to view a boat which is for sale); I will talk to him about the points you raise, although they do sound like relatively minor issues which I can get resolved after purchase if necessary. Fingers crossed for the survey.

Like you I have not really been able to find a more modern equivalent but fortunately these boats seem to have been built to last.

I look forward to reading more about these interesting boats on this forum.


Many thanks again 

[Sula]

Hello again seekinglm, and Happy New Year.

Good luck with your survey. Any survey report, particularly on a boat several decades old, will at first sight look alarming, but read it carefully and see what is critical and what is not. Don't be railroaded into buying a liability (there will be other LMs available in time), but don't be put off a sound boat because the surveyor has picked up some minor issues, or something you can negotiate the price down to reflect (or get fixed by the current owner before sale).

Be aware that your insurer will almost certainly require you to carry out any recommendations from the surveyor before the boat is used. In the past I have been able to negotiate a revised report from a surveyor (this didn't relate to an LM) to change one recommendation which was really a longer term wear issue to be done the next year instead of before launch, and another, where he recommended 'loose' wooden framed slats on top of the cockpit seat should be fixed down, which would have been complicated to do properly, to instead 'fix down or remove' (they're still in the shed now!).

The surveyor will probably not offer any meaningful opinion on the engine. Note that replacing or rebuilding an engine would cost a substantial proportion of the value of the boat. You may wish to get an engineer to run the engine and offer an opinion on it before purchase if you are not able to check it out yourself.

Let us know how you get on.

Regards,

John

[seekinglm]

Thanks again for your thoughts John, I have put the various points you made to the surveyor. He is also going to try to run the engine for half and hour or so - which will at least give some indication of whether it sounds ok and whether it is smoky. I will keep you posted!

Andy