LM 27 new aluminium windows

[oceandancer]

Hi All,

I have just taken delivery of a complete set (11 windows) of aluminium framed high tensile glass windows direct from Denmark. The firm ERTEC have supplied over 150 sets for the LM27 and took over from the original manufacturer NC Bjerg. No dimensions or templates were required, they sent ME the diagrams with all the dimensions on. The whole lot arrived on a pallet this morning,  weight 60 kgs. I have had a look and they seem exactly like the original windows ( but without 42 years of corrosion!) fully curved to accept the hull form. All the screws are supplied as are full instructions. I will begin with a trial run of the small forecabin windows tomorrow and will post a picture when the whole job is complete. Obviously they are not cheap but they do seem to be an exact like for like replacement. I have been unable to source suitable replacements within the UK. Watch this space.

Regards

Mick

[Sula]

Apr 3, 2017 17:26:27 GMT oceandancer said:

 Obviously they are not cheap 

How not cheap are they, out of interest?

[oceandancer]

Hi Sula,

I changed my windows as part of a general improvement to the boat in lieu of changing up to an LM30 so the overall cost was set against the cost of changing vessels which is quite considerable when you include the Brokers fee which would have been more than the cost of the new windows.

The windows work out at about £250 each depending on the exchange rate. I paid 23500 DKR direct from ERTEC including shipping and VAT for the full set. I am sure they would supply part sets. After exchange to Sterling this worked out at £2788 for the 11 windows delivered to my door by TNT.

I have now fitted the 6 windows for the 2 cabins and they look great although I was suprised to find that the apertures had to be made slightly larger, no problem with my B&D Skorpion saw, but the mess !!!. I have a MK1 hull and I suppose that bigger windows were fitted for later marks.

Here is the ERTEC diagram for the LM27



Contact details:
Sam Shad
ERTEC Danmark ApS
Egestedvej 2B, DK-3320 Skaevinge, Denmark
Phone: [phone], Fax: [phone]
Website: www.ertec.dk - email: [e-mail]

Regards

Mick

[jandane]

WOW!
They are on my wish list. My old rubberseal attached are still dry and fine but two of the cabin windows have become mat and hav a lot of look-alike cracks.

[oceandancer]

Hi All,
I have now installed my ERTEC windows which have made the boat look 10 years younger. I now present my (slightly verbose) experience in order to provide some guidance for others who may install these or similar windows

As reported above there are some differences in shape from the original windows which I imagine will be fairly common which ever manufacturer is used. I had to cut on average about 5mm from my original aperture. The differences are mainly at the tight bends at each corner but the large side windows in the wheelhouse were also a bit shorter from front to back which necessitated careful positioning in order to fully cover the original aperture whilst leaving enough of an overlap to get a good seal.

I made hardboard templates of the new apertures by drawing round the inner frame and then drawing a cutting line 7mm inside this line. You only need 6 templates as some of the shapes are mirror images for Port and Starboard. If the position is fairly obvious you can position the template on the outside and get an assistant to hold it in position from inside by means of a couple of screws in the hardboard while you draw round it on the outside onto the GRP to get a line for the new aperture.

If the position is more critical you can get your assistant to hold the template up on the INSIDE in the optimum position whilst you draw round the existing hole onto the template from the OUTSIDE. You can then drill small holes close to the inside of this line and screw thin self tappers through the hardboard. These act as positioning pegs and you can then sit the template in the original hole from the outside and draw round it for the new aperture.

I found that a reciprocating saw was the best tool. The GRP is very tough and quite thick, well over the nominal 5mm in some places. The Black and Decker Scorpion has a metal cutting blade, good for straights and a curved wood blade for the corners. You will inevitably cut the hole on the small side and further trimming will be required. I found the an angle grinder fitted with a flap disk was the best tool for this. If you are VERY careful you can remove the guard and use it flat, but be VERY CAREFUL to keep fingers well back. The flap wheel is about 10mm thick and you can use it edge on to make good job of the tight bends. This trims very well the only problem being that it takes twice as long to clean up the fine dust! You need 1-2mm of play in the window position to aid location of the holes so don't make it too tight.

It is important to clean away any mastic and sealant remaining from the old windows to leave a flat surface for sealing. No sealant or mastic is required for the new windows.

In general it's best to get the lower edge right first and you can then place the new window in the hole and see where more trimming is required. Take care with the wheelhouse screens as there in NO room at the bottom for a larger hole, it has to go up. This is a difficult area as you cannot get a straight line with a screwdriver. You need a screwdriver with a flexible shaft. Halfords sell a good one with a prodigious selection of 7mm bits. All the screws are supplied with the windows and ERTEC favour star shaped T20 heads which have excellent grip. Any really difficult access areas such as adjacent to the engine controls can be overcome using a  screwdriver bit gripped in a pair of mole grips. 

I found that cutting all the self tapping threads before the window went in under perfect conditions was well worth doing as it is very important to get them upright and not leaning over in any direction.

The very clear instructions with the windows warn against fitting them single handed as there is a concern that the self cutting threads will be stripped in the aluminium if you try to tighten up too much. They advise that an assistant push from the outside in order to compress the gasket whilst you screw from the inside.

I found that, if you pre cut all the threads as describe above you can start the screws very easily inserting them all just a few threads and then gradually tighten them, diagonal corners first, then centre of the long sides . Then go round all the screws in sequence slowly tightening them about a quarter turn at a time using your LEFT HAND (always supposing you are right handed). You need to go round 3 or 4 times until they are all hand tight. More tightening in this manner is required after a few days of settling in. I affixed the windows on the outside using gaffer tape whilst I screwed up from inside. Be careful with the first few but after that the window is not going to fall out.

Finally you can give the windows a good hosepipe test to check for leaks. I only had minor leaks at first on the cabin windows which have to align with the curve of the cabin wall. These leaks were easily eliminated by subsequent tightening.

The screws inside are covered by a very attractive trim strip once you are happy that there are no leaks.

Here are the new windows with trim strip inserted , very neat.



Here is a picture of the wheelhouse from outside.



And here is a picture of the inside of the wheelhouse without the trim strip fitted . Note the many screws. The original wheelhouse windows had only 10 screws each!



I hope  that this has been useful and will encourage other owners to renew their old windows. In all the process took about 16 hours of work.

Regards

Mick

[alanfareham]

Hi All
Those windows look truly outstanding BUT for the record i've just replaced some of the old rubber seals and acrylic (tinted) windows on Vindhunden LM27.
Although not in the same league as the ERTEC windows i"m very pleased with the results and all for under £200 for the six saloon windows.
Admittedly there was a lot of cursing involved but once it was realised that the correct web clearance is critical to an easy installation things went a lot easier.
Hope this helps someone.
Alan

[Sula]

Jul 20, 2018 20:44:24 GMT alanfareham said:

Hi All
Those windows look truly outstanding BUT for the record i've just replaced some of the old rubber seals and acrylic (tinted) windows on Vindhunden LM27.
Although not in the same league as the ERTEC windows i"m very pleased with the results and all for under £200 for the six saloon windows.
Admittedly there was a lot of cursing involved but once it was realised that the correct web clearance is critical to an easy installation things went a lot easier.
Hope this helps someone.
Alan

Thanks, Alan.  It helps me in my pondering renewing my windows and rubber seals.   The aluminium framed ones are beyond my budget, and actually quite like the look of the rubber surrounds (until they get as dilapidated as mine are!).

Replacing the rubber seals is getting urgent, but I may as well replace the saloon windows while I am at it, as these are rather crazed.  My wheelhouse windows are fine as they are glass (I don't know if that is standard).   I am leaning towards paying someone to do it, as I have so many other things on my plate, but haven't quite ruled out having a go myself. 

A few questions, if I may:

Did you cut your windows yourself?

What was their thickness?

How did you go about bending them?

What do you mean by web clearance?

Did you need, or use, a special tool for inserting the rubber surrounds into place?

Where did you obtain the seals from?

Did you wholly rely on the rubber to make the seal, or did you put any sort of sealant between the rubber and the cabin side, and/or between the rubber and the window?  

 

[tonyp]

There's a bit about the correct seals in the "Leaking Windows" posts, John. I haven't used any sealer when replacing my seals and haven't seen any leaks yet. I replaced one last week single-handed to see if it can be done, and will add a bit to the leaking windows post about it.
tonyp

[alanfareham]

Hi Sula
Pleased to answer your questions.
The following system worked for me it may not be way of the professionals.
Firstly as you probably guessed i'm on the south coast (UK) so obtained all my materials locally.
The windows were 4mm acrylic (don't go thicker it makes for a harder install i've just done a small fishing boat in 5mm a lot harder) and cut using the old windows as a pattern by a company called Hampshire Signs & Plastics, from memory about £90, very pleased with the service. Can't say strongly enough do not try to cut them yourself, you need a special blade with no 'set' in it but even then i'll guarantee you'll melt the acrylic and want to throw the lot in the drink you guessed i've been there.
The acrylic willl bend naturally as you fit them so no need to worry about bending.
The rubber seal has two slots one for the glass one for the grp cutout separated by rubber called the web. I inadvertently bought the new rubber seal and with a quick examination the web looked the same but there was a 2mm difference - the new one being bigger which made the install impossible so once adjustments had been made to the glass and cutout things went much smoother, no sealant was used.
The seals were put in with screwdrivers this worked best for me but you will need an accomplice on the other side to steady the window and plenty of dilute fairy liquid.
I obtained the seals from Bridge rubber of Woolston, 6mm/4mm.
You'll need to buy the special tool for £11 from them to put the rubber insert in to finish the job.( if you live this way you're welcome to borrow my one PM me)
I've put the hose all over the windows no leaks very pleased with the result, do it yourself there's nothing like the satisfaction you get from something like this.
Let me know if i've missed anything.
Alan

[Sula]

Thanks Alan, Tony and Mick. Very useful info, especially when combined with that in the 'Leaking Windows' thread that I'd forgotten about and which Tony pointed out.

Alan, can you clarify what is the correct web thickness?

[alanfareham]

Sula 
I believe the old seals were 6mm webs from memory, i've chucked them now unfortunately, new ones being 8mm web defo.
You can obviously check your old ones upon removal (best option) blank off with ply then order new seal.

[Charles]

That's a very good description Alan. I set about doing this a couple of years ago but found the physical labour so demanding, particularly for the hands, that I stopped after completing the middle windows on each side. I really ought to get on and replace the seals on the big saloon windows and the small forepeak ones. I've got the materials (from Seals+Direct) but I forgot to order the necessary amount of will power.
Good luck John. Hope it's a success. Good to meet you and Sula last weekend.
Charles