LM 27 first buyer CHAINPLATES concern

[seamarin8]

Hello everyone,

I am actively looking to buy LM 27.

I am currently in Denmark and I have seen a few boats that are for sale.

The good examples are pretty expensive 20K eur+

However I came across few examples that seem to represent a potential value for money.

I saw a boat yesterday that has been sitting in the dry dock for last 3 years.
After inspecting it I could see that the owner looked after the boat however he got too old as it happens and the boat has not been used much in recent years.

I inspected the boat thoroughly and the boat looks really dry and clean. No obvious signs of osmosis, the deck is clean and without any major gelcoat cracks.

However there is one issue that concerns me and that is why I wanted to start this thread in hope that someone can give me a guidance and advice about this issue.

The chain plates on the edges of the hull are a bit wobblyand they are not sealed properly. I can move them about 1-2mm when i grab them with my fingers.

They don't move up or dow or in the direction bow-stern however i can move them port to starboard about 1-2mm.

Since the boat was sitting in the open yard for the last 3 years I suspect that the water might have seeped through the openings and potentially made some structural damage to this vital part of the boat.

Other than this issue I have not seen any other major points of concern and I am interested to bid on this boat however I would like to get an advice of how bad this situation is and what it would take to fix this permanently.

Any constructive advice is highly appreciated.

Marin

[oceandancer]

Hi Seamarine8,

Welcome to the forum. The LM chain plates are all glassed in to the the layup and usually give no problem. My guess is that, as you are unable to move them up and down or fore and aft, the plate is still basically secure but there is some movement in the upper part only due to some wear in the toerail which is part of the deck moulding. It sits above the hull side and the chainplate protrudes through it.  It's not laid up to the same thickness. I am assuming that there are no cracks in the toerail  where the chainplate emerges The plate is about 200mm long and splayed at the bottom end which gives it a firm anchor in the layup.You can clearly see this on the backstay chainplate if you look under the after deck. Stainless steel can rust in the right circumstances but if your plates were corroded you would see bulging on the outer hull and on the inner side also. If possible it would be worth while investigating beneath the headlining material adhered inside the cave lockers . You could cut this neatly and then stick it back after.

I think that your plates are basically safe but due to the structural implications the advice of a qualified marine surveyor should be sought. It is probable that a cosmetic repair only is required to the supporting toerail moulding and this can be effected by filling any visible voids with very a liquid resin whilst working the plate gently to and fro to ensure a complete wetting out and fill, ( obviously the whole area mus be completely dry before you start). Allow to set and then fill around the chainplate with a matching gelcoat to achieve a good cosmetic repair (which is the difficult part). Any cracks in the toerail will require extensive channeling right down into the layup in order to effect a viable repair I have seen this done on a boat in our marina. We have plenty of experience on this forum and I am sure that others who have experienced the same problem will give their advice.

Regards

Mick

[seamarin8]

Hi Mick,

Thank you for your detailed response and for welcoming me to this forum.

I feel really excited to be able to participate here and I feel even more excited that next week I could own my first motorsejler!

I have seen the backstay chainplate and i saw how it is fiberglassed into the hull structure.

Even though I could not directly see the port and starboard chainplates from inside, i felt the outlines through the insulation in the cupboard/shelves space and I got the impression that they are embedded where they are intended to be.

The chain plate itself does not look rusty at all so I guess it would also not be rusty under the toe rail either. The outher hull lools nice and straight with no signs of any bulging at all. I could not inspect the inner side because I am simply inspecting someone else's boat with the prospect of potentially buying it and I can not expect that the owner would be happy if I was to make any perforations on the inner insulation material no matter how pedantic I would be.

I would be really surprised if the whole chainplate actually moved. I guess it would take quite a bit of force to actually move the whole chainplate in any direction and I guess any such damage would be clearly visible.

So if the water can get into the void where toerail gave away a bit because of the movement of the top section of that chainplate, how far could that water go and what kind of damage could it cause if the area was constantly getting wet?

I saw the people are sealing these areas with different kind of compounds. Some of them look like a soft black rubber and some of them look like a translucent standard silicone and some of them look like what it could be described as some kind of a hard gray putty that resembles a tile grouting.

Is there any recommendation of what kind of epoxy or sealant would be the best to use in these areas?

My humble opinion is that the void should be filled with a good epoxy compound and some good sealant on the very top to avoid any future hairline gaps from appearing.

I guess there will always be some movement in the top section between the chain plates and toe rail opening therefore I assume that it would be better to apply some sealant that has some flex to it so that even if the chain plate or toe rail opening moves a bit that the compound can flex with that moment and keep the area watertight at all times.

I saw on few boats where people have used normal silicone that it doesn't really hold and the gaps seem to appear quite quickly again.

The best compound that I have seen by the look is this grey kind of putty that seems to be holding well. It looks quite solid on touch and does not feel rubbery when i press my fingernails into it.

On that boat where i saw that sealant i saw no gaps at all. I don't know if that is due to the fact that the owner has possibly just applied the compound or we are talking about some really solid product. The owner seamed to have used this compound to also seal all the electrical cables that run through the hull such as near the mast base and some other areas.

I wanted to leave the note on the boat to ask the owner which compound they have used and I am contemplating to do that tomorrow when I get to that marina again.

I will try to take some photos of different boats that have used different kind of sealants to tackle this problem and I hope that someone can recognise what kind of materials they are.

I would love to know if you guys have any first-hand experience of which kind of compound performs the best in sealing these areas.

Cheers

Marin

[seamarin8]

[seamarin8]

[seamarin8]

[oceandancer]

Hi Marin,

From what I can gather, talking to another LM27 owner, he was told that the gaps around his chainplates were probably due to lack of rig tension in the main shrouds which allowed some very slight mast movement in high winds and transverse movement of the cap shrouds. The toerail GRP is the weak point, the attachment being about 40mm above the hull side proper and this was also cracked fore and aft but has been repaired as I have indicated above with hard gelcoat. This was about 4 seasons ago and the cracks have not reappeared. His rig is also now properly tensioned to avoid any movement.

You may have to wait a while for other owners to respond but I'm sure that this is quite a common problem with the LM27. Also look for star crazing in the deck around the lower shrouds which is another common problem.

[seamarin8]

These are the chainplates I am concerned about. What do you guys think?!

Does this look like something that could be easily fixed?

The rest of the boat is actually looking pretty solid.

Any constructive comments and advise is very much appreciated.

I saw another nice LM 27 today but I unfortunately did not find the agreement on the price with the owner.

The boat was in almost mint condition. It had major ground up restoration done about 18 months ago and the owner was standing firm on the price of 165 000 DKK. Something I was not able to match.

So I am still shopping around Denmark in hope that I will land a good deal.

Thanks for any feedback

Marin

[seamarin8]

Hi Mick,

Thanks again for your reply.

Your description of what causes this problem makes sense.

It would be nice to hear first hand experience from someone who has done a solid repair to this problem..

This boat surprisingly has no other cracks along the deck at all. No star crazings anywhere.

The whole deck looks intact except these two chain plates.

The backstay chainplate does not have this kind of damage which indicates that this damage could have indeed been caused by the transverse movement of the cap shrouds due to the improper tension.

If I could fix this problem without major investment I am seriously thinking to place an offer for this boat.

Still shopping and hoping I find a gem. I feel like motorsailing back to Croatia ASAP! I am getting over driving from marina to marina in hope I strike the gold. I have seen 14 LM27 boats already... I am getting tired of lengthy templated inspections day after day...

My budget is 110 000 DKK. I am starting to think that people here prefer mooring and ongoing maintenance fees then my cash.

I hope I find someone who likes cash so that I can finally setsail with a solid boat.

Let's hope..

Hope dies last...

[seamarin8]

This is that gray putty I was talking about...